InfoGovHotSeat21 - Geoff Zodda, PearlCare Search Group

Jim Merrifield (00:00.685)
to The InfoGov Hot seat. I'm your host Jim Merrifield and with me today is Geoff Zodda at PearlCare Search Group. Welcome Geoff!

Geoff Zodda (00:08.83)
Hey Jim, how are you doing today?

Jim Merrifield (00:10.809)
Awesome doing well glad you could take a few minutes with us on the hot seat answer a few questions get to know you a little bit I know we've known each other for quite some time So if you could please give the audience a brief introduction of your role How long you've been with your current company and one fun fact about yourself?

Geoff Zodda (00:30.698)
Awesome, awesome, and thank you for having me, Jim. It's a pleasure.

And yes, we've known each other for a hot minute here. So I've been in the legal technology staffing industry since 2007, working extensively with global law firms, various sizes, been a PearlCare care Search Group since 2016. And yeah, we have a great legal technology practice here that I run, so.

It's a lot of fun working in the business.

Jim Merrifield (01:05.793)
Yeah, you got tons of experience and I told you, don't forget the fun fact, Geoff.

Geoff Zodda (01:09.85)
Fun fact. Yeah, I almost forgot before I went into recruiting I actually spent three years with the New Jersey now Brooklyn Nets in their basketball operations Department as an intern and got to do some pretty cool things with that. So That's pretty cool. That's fun

Jim Merrifield (01:25.057)
Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, that's pretty cool. So yeah, so if you're a Nets fan, what's your football team?

Geoff Zodda (01:32.59)
My football team for this year, unfortunately, it's the Giants, but you know, things are ticking up, but I love the New York Giants.

Jim Merrifield (01:42.841)
Hey, you got that quarterback, you know? You know, you got, so that's cool, that's awesome. Now I'm a Jets fan, so I'm with you. I feel I'm probably in a worse scenario, so, you know.

Geoff Zodda (01:46.71)
Do it.

Geoff Zodda (01:57.054)
I was just going to say, you know, listen, I love talking with Jets fans. It makes it a lot easier.

Jim Merrifield (02:04.009)
this year. Hopefully, hopefully next year we got some something to talk about but now that's cool. Nets fan, Giants fan, that that's pretty cool. So let's get right into this. Can you share some insights into the current hiring landscape and any notable trends? I know you have tons of experience and you're constantly watching the market especially in the legal world so what are you seeing?

Geoff Zodda (02:27.074)
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, the stark difference between 2022 and 2023 was pretty crazy. 2022 was the great resignation where it was a very, very much a candidate driven market. You had people flying off the shelves, great candidates were on the market for about a week. They could find a job instantly. This year, it's become a longer process.

The clients are really driving the process now in 2023, especially the latter half, where everything's become a bit longer. Candidates have to meet with more hiring managers, more stakeholders throughout the process. It's become something where candidates do have to become patient. And then also on the other hand, clients do have to understand if they do have a good candidate, you may not wanna lose them either.

Jim Merrifield (03:20.473)
No, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, the market, I'm sure, has changed. And there's been a lot of people even in my network moving around a bit, hopping from firm to firm. So that's great. So speaking of candidates, is there any specific qualities or skills that you prioritize when evaluating potential candidates?

Geoff Zodda (03:31.432)
Yeah.

Geoff Zodda (03:46.574)
There's a few different things we look at and you know, it's not a fitted hat per se, it's definitely adjustable but the days of candidates just getting by with their technical skills is over. You know, none of our clients are going to hire someone just based upon, you know, their on paper credentials. They're looking for someone that's analytical, someone that's thoughtful in their process.

someone that could work across the organization, work with individuals at all levels. I think that's a big thing that has become very different is there's a ton of collaboration, especially since the pandemic, everybody's working together within an organization. You could be on a Zoom with a technology marketing group one day, the next day you're speaking with analytics and intelligence. It-

you know, it's so different. And I think someone that, you know, can communicate well, you know, is really thoughtful, you know, someone that does have technical skills that still obviously is very much in play, you know, is all, you know, boxes that, you know, our clients want to check.

Jim Merrifield (04:58.413)
Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, technical skills these days are kind of a dime a dozen, right, in our industry. But I think the skills that set people apart are probably those soft skills, right? Like you mentioned, thoughtful, being able to communicate, being able to engage people at any level. Right. You'd agree with that?

Geoff Zodda (05:10.077)
Oh yeah.

Geoff Zodda (05:18.286)
Oh, 100%, I think taking another level, it's more about not what your answer is when you're speaking with people, it's how you got to that answer. What's your thought process? Yeah, we know that you might be able to come up with a solution, but what steps did you take in order to find the solution? I think that's something that during the interview process with a lot of our clients, they're digging into that a little bit more than they used to. I think that it's something where...

Jim Merrifield (05:38.341)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Zodda (05:45.846)
There was a lot of gray area that was happening in interview processes. And we sort of like that. I like that sort of human element that goes into it.

Jim Merrifield (05:56.397)
Yeah, so you mentioned before remote work, right? There's a trend in hiring and things. Has remote work, that whole trend, impacted your approach to recruitment, company culture? Is everybody just asking to work remotely five days or are they backing off a little bit?

Geoff Zodda (06:09.75)
Right.

Geoff Zodda (06:15.819)
It's been a phenomenon. I mean, the remote work culture has spread through the legal industry, as you know. One thing I will say is. Not all candidates are asking for the remote work. I think a lot of people do want to get out of their houses and get into an office a few days a week. Now, not everybody wants to go in five days a week, depending upon, you know, traffic and commuting and how much time it takes to get in.

But a lot of people do want that face-to-face interaction, the chance to get lunch with someone on their team. And some people still do want remote because it does take a long time to get into the office. Or someone in Iowa can work for a firm that's based out of New York potentially, and they get that skillset from someone that's from Iowa per se.

Jim Merrifield (07:05.069)
Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. I mean, I think there is definitely value, right? Being in the office a few days a week, being able to have those interactive conversations face to face instead of like what we're doing here, right? Virtually every day, it's like a death by Zoom or Teams. So, yeah, yep, I like it. Yep, Zoom fatigue. So.

Geoff Zodda (07:15.894)
Yeah.

Geoff Zodda (07:22.903)
And they call it Zoom fatigue. Zoom fatigue.

Jim Merrifield (07:29.069)
So let's talk about job seekers. What advice do you have for job seekers looking to stand out in a competitive market? How can you set yourself apart?

Geoff Zodda (07:37.994)
Yeah, I would say that before anyone applies to a position on LinkedIn, through a company I'm not advocating for companies not to post on LinkedIn, you want to see who you know at that organization. I think that's a huge thing that people don't spend enough time utilizing the network that you've built over the past several years. See if you know, maybe even the hiring manager you may know or a peer of the hiring manager.

And if you do that, that's an easy end to the organization. They'll know your credentials, some things that a resume may not even have on it. So I think that that's certainly something that you could touch upon. Then also, if you don't know someone at the organization, see what agency, you know, I mean, it always helps to know a good recruiting agency out there. But if you could find the agency that's working on a particular role where your skillsets might be a fit.

they may have a connection to the CIO or the head of HR or talent where they can make a direct introduction where you're not thrown into a bucket of thousands of candidates, you're put to the top of the list. So I think that you wanna do that before applying. That's a big point of advice that I tell my candidates. I even say, if I'm not working on a specific role, I can definitely maybe point you in the right direction with someone that is hiring for the position.

introduce you to. So I think it's always good to know someone in the firm. It makes the process a lot easier.

Jim Merrifield (09:09.785)
Yeah, it's all about relationships, right? No matter if you're looking for a job, you're looking to, you know, fix a project, right? You're dealing with a project in your firm or your company. It's still all about relationships, who you know. And LinkedIn, you mentioned, is an unbelievable tool, right?

Geoff Zodda (09:11.938)
Absolutely.

Geoff Zodda (09:22.798)
Thanks.

Geoff Zodda (09:27.142)
Absolutely. Sometimes it never changes, right? It's who you know, where you know.

Jim Merrifield (09:30.529)
Yeah, for sure. I think most of our conversations are on LinkedIn. You know, it's just easier to hit a message. Everybody's usually on LinkedIn and things like that. Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. So let's talk about industries. I know you're focused on legal, but are there any specific industries or skills that you foresee being in high demand in the near future? I'm sure something has to do with like AI.

Geoff Zodda (09:41.322)
Love LinkedIn. Love LinkedIn, yeah.

Geoff Zodda (09:54.821)
and

Geoff Zodda (10:01.03)
I was going to go in a little bit of a different direction here just because we're on a governance podcast. I would say that, yeah, listen, I'm going to hit you with this. So obviously a lot of law firms are moving to the cloud. So with that comes the challenges of governance within the cloud.

Jim Merrifield (10:01.065)
Just a hunch.

Geoff Zodda (10:20.518)
So I've seen recently that there's a huge pickup of finding people with the governance plus the ability to do it within a cloud environment. So the M365 environment, huge. You know, the Azure, you know, being able to deal with privacy within an Azure environment, big time. You know, there's a lot of things that connect to the cloud where.

the ISO requirements aren't going to be good enough soon enough. There's going to be more specific ones that have to do with cloud technologies and making sure that you have that certification with the cloud technologies that you're using. So that's one thing. I think another thing that we're seeing out there a lot is low-code, no-code development. It's a pretty cool area, but I think, again, Microsoft came up with a great stack that they're using with Power Apps, Power Automate.

that help the developers within an organization do a lot of quick development, dashboards, sites for the partners at a firm at a rapid speed where in the past, it could take a couple months to put together these big presentations with low code, no code, you're able to do it pretty efficiently. Then one thing else I wanted to mention, which I think is another huge trend is the cybersecurity realm.

Can't say it enough, but cloud plus cybersecurity, that's gonna continue to grow, and that's a trend that we're gonna continue to see the increase in that through the next half decade or so. I don't see it stopping any time soon.

Jim Merrifield (12:01.785)
No, nor do I. And there's plenty of education. I think Microsoft, I was away the last couple of weeks, but looking at Microsoft and even LinkedIn Learning, I mean, they have so much education on there. Most of it's free, right, to take advantage of these. Dive into Compliance Center and understanding 0365. I know too, ARMA has some...

some certification courses around that as well. And, you know, ILTA has some training. So, I mean, there's a plethora of education and training. It's really at our fingertips, right? There's really no excuses anymore. It's pretty cost effective. And I think the hardest part for us as IG professionals is finding the time, right? And for our professional development and continuing to progress because...

Geoff Zodda (12:40.226)
Yeah

Geoff Zodda (12:49.449)
over.

Jim Merrifield (12:55.229)
If we don't, I think this, right, as you stated, this, this industry is just going to leave us behind, you know, it's gone are the days of, yeah, gone are the days of managing just boxes. I mean, that's just like, forget it. And even file shares, right? It was like, all right, cleanup file shares, but that's those things are just, those are gone.

Geoff Zodda (13:01.938)
It's, it's, it's ever changed.

Geoff Zodda (13:09.026)
Hahaha.

Geoff Zodda (13:17.638)
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, with the emergence of so many different DMSs and the cloud sharing, I mean, the possibilities are endless. It's such an exciting industry to be in, because if you're standing like Pat, you're falling behind. You definitely need to continue to be aggressive in your continuing education. And even if you have a couple of minutes here or there just showing that you're continuing to progress in your career.

by just getting a quick certification or just showing that you care about what you do. And you make it a career, not a job. And I think that's the difference between this industry and others. It's a career for a lot of people, not just a job and a paycheck.

Jim Merrifield (14:00.909)
Yeah, and it's fun. I mean, listen, it's a fun industry. Yeah, I mean, it's changing. You got privacy, you got security. I mean, AI, I mean, I'm playing with AI tools, you know, all the time. I mean, it's just, I mean, my brain's getting a little wracked, you know, trying to understand like, okay, I put this data into the AI tool. What does this tool do with this, you know, this data once it spits it back to me? So it's kind of a fine balance. And I think that's...

Geoff Zodda (14:02.737)
It is fun.

Geoff Zodda (14:12.84)
I'm sorry.

Jim Merrifield (14:30.541)
That's definitely where firms and even our clients, corporations are even, basically the whole world's trying to figure out, okay, how can I use AI to get a competitive advantage generally.

Geoff Zodda (14:44.854)
Yeah, we saw a firm this week announce that they are implementing the whole Thompson Reuters AI suite into their knowledge management. I mean, so that just shows that it's going to happen. You know, you just want to stick with it, stick with the trends and be on top of your game always.

Jim Merrifield (15:04.513)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, Microsoft's got its co-pilot. You know, that's coming out. I mean, who doesn't use Microsoft, right? And I think by default you get co-pilot and it's up to the IT folks to turn it on or not. So the IG professionals are gonna have to work together with IT to figure out how to govern that content and have permissions and all that good stuff. So, no, I think you hit on.

Geoff Zodda (15:11.85)
Oh absolutely.

Geoff Zodda (15:19.042)
That's it.

Jim Merrifield (15:34.165)
So many topics, Geoff. I mean, it's definitely a bright future for us as IG professionals. It's continuing to grow. I think you're gonna stay super busy, right? As a search firm. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, we asked a lot of questions to you today, Geoff, but one last one just to leave the audience with. Do you have any final thoughts, anything you wanna share that I didn't ask you with the audience?

Geoff Zodda (15:47.315)
Fingers crossed.

Geoff Zodda (16:02.782)
I think a good sort of ending to this are individuals that are like hop on the job hunt, you know, hot on the job hunt and individuals that haven't found, you know, their next home yet. You know, I just want to say that, you know, just continue being, you know, persistent, you know, keep looking out, you know, keep trying to find your next opportunity. It will happen, you know, and, you know, 2024 is here. So it's a chance for new opportunities.

a new year's coming, so just keep at it. When the chips are down, you never know when that next opportunity is going to come.

Jim Merrifield (16:39.169)
Yeah, for sure. When in doubt, I know Geoff is always available. He's a friend. He's a member of a search firm, but he's also a great guy to bounce some ideas off of. So thanks so much for sharing your experience. I know you got a lot of it and spending some time today on the hot seat. Now, that's great. And thank you, everyone, for attending today's episode of the.

Geoff Zodda (16:47.625)
step.

Geoff Zodda (17:01.263)
Oh, absolutely. Thank you for having me, Jim.

Jim Merrifield (17:08.329)
InfoGov hot seat, of course, please visit our website InfoGovHotSeat.com hot seat comm to view our latest episodes if you'd like to be a guest on the hot seat like Geoff here All you got to do is submit your information through our website. We'll get you on the schedule and Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of your day

Geoff Zodda (17:29.431)
Thank you, Jim.